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SLS 2018 - End of year thoughts/discussion

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Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:24 pm PostPost subject:
Steviej
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I think the point of speed trap / lap times is the fairest, if you are setting times consistently faster than the class above you should be moved up
Police it to make it fair, encourage the lower and retro class, you could even have a best newcomers award for people competing in their first year (scored across the classes not in each class)
If the Radicals, Spires and Westfield XTR types are to be allowed I think they should be a seperate class all together, possibly allowing other space framed ‘specials’ too.
Above all don’t change or complicate it with ballast, penalties or 1c Tyres, it works well for most people the number of entries and series sponsors are the proof of that.
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Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:01 pm PostPost subject:
AK
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The last bit is a good point - it needs to work for the majority
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Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:04 pm PostPost subject:
Steve H
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Why not allow the radicals, XTR, etc type cars in pro? Surely that should be / is the unlimited class. Hell, try it for a season and if doesn't work change it for next season and the lesson will have been learnt.

Is there any need to add 1C tyres? Does it add anything to the experience? Adding in 1C tyres to all classes means pretty much the whole field needs to buy yet another set of tyres, maybe two, and get a licence upgrade. More cost especially if people are competing in other disciplines, I.e. Hillcllimbs.

With regard to the monitoring of people appearing to be cheating / out of class / etc how many examples of this has been seen per event this season? Is this really an issue? And if it has ever been an issue has the current method of monitoring speed trap data been insufficient to prove it?

I think the format we have works very well, it's clear and simple:
- You produce this power, you make this weight, your in this class - end of! If you win your class, well done, you probably deserve it!
- You get weight checked periodically through the day, you get speed trap data monitored through the day, and you stand the risk of getting ECU / map checked through the day or power run repeated. If you pass all of these and still win your class, well done, you probably deserve it!
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Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:34 am PostPost subject:
s2t
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On a kind of related note I was interested to see that the last dry clockwise round of 2017 had several cars with exactly to the 1/100th mph through the SF speed trap as 2 weeks ago
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Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:27 pm PostPost subject:
scottish scrutineer
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Just to clarify, it wasn't me that proposed 'performance ballast'. For us, that creates all sorts of issues with safely securing ballast. Difficult with road going cars with full trim.

Allowing Radicals etc into Pro would be feasible. They would need to have the right license (Race Nat B IIRC), unless they were genuine road registered and compete in a road legal condition.

KMSC could apply S17.2.4.2.
Quote:
Where the Event forms a round of a Series or Championship a competitor who achieves a lap time within 5%, three or more times, of the fastest time of the class above them will be reviewed by the Organising Committee who may require the driver upgrades to that class.

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Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:34 pm PostPost subject:
Fee
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scottish scrutineer wrote:
Just to clarify, it wasn't me that proposed 'performance ballast'. For us, that creates all sorts of issues with safely securing ballast. Difficult with road going cars with full trim.

Allowing Radicals etc into Pro would be feasible. They would need to have the right license (Race Nat B IIRC), unless they were genuine road registered and compete in a road legal condition.

KMSC could apply S17.2.4.2.
Quote:
Where the Event forms a round of a Series or Championship a competitor who achieves a lap time within 5%, three or more times, of the fastest time of the class above them will be reviewed by the Organising Committee who may require the driver upgrades to that class.



I can understand why this comes up as a suggestion....but I just don't think it is the right direction for the series

You get your car ready, you get placed in a class based on your power to weight ratio and you have to drive your absolute fastest to win
Do it 'too well' and you get moved up to compete against people that are in a different bracket to you. I just don't see how that is fair?

Time Attack have a similar rule, and it works there, as people just choose (or at least they used to) what class they were in.

For SLS you're either being penalised because you're too good, or because the people in the class above you are too slow!
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Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:00 am PostPost subject:
s2t
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In the interests of transparency why dont we publish the RA dyno graphs
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Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:28 am PostPost subject:
scottish scrutineer
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Fee wrote:


Time Attack have a similar rule, and it works there, as people just choose (or at least they used to) what class they were in.


That explains why TA have that Reg. Thanks Fee

Fee wrote:

For SLS you're either being penalised because you're too good, or because the people in the class above you are too slow!

Power isn't the answer to everybody's problems

broom broom
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Last edited by scottish scrutineer on Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:33 am PostPost subject:
scottish scrutineer
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s2t wrote:
In the interests of transparency why dont we publish the RA dyno graphs


Because some won't want to give their secrets away. That's not saying that they are cheating, but the graphs that I've seen show how folks are developing their cars within the rules. They have invested time and effort to do this.

Question Would you share your setup details with your competitors?
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Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:09 pm PostPost subject:
HummuH
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scottish scrutineer wrote:
s2t wrote:
In the interests of transparency why dont we publish the RA dyno graphs


Because some won't want to give their secrets away. That's not saying that they are cheating, but the graphs that I've seen show how folks are developing their cars within the rules. They have invested time and effort to do this.

Question Would you share your setup details with your competitors?


A power run dyno plot doesn't really give that much away in the scheme of "setup details" and due to the class structure everyone pretty much roughly knows where their competitors are at.

I guess this debate principally revolves around accusations of "cheating". Is publishing power, weight etc for all competitors going to solve that? Nope, there will always saltyness in the paddock at these type of events.

I still think the best measure of "cheating" is already public info, that's the lap times, sector times and speed traps. It's very easy to measure a competitors performance against previous outings as a % improvement given the data is in spreadsheet.

Only thing it doesn't account for is track conditions but even wet v damp v dry speed trap data should be relatively comparable I'd have thought, perhaps more so in lower classes. Sector times and lap times less so.
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Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:32 pm PostPost subject:
David Long
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Over the years I've been surprised how times are coming down. There's no doubt that a few individuals are very talented behind the wheel, but also we are seeing cars being developed in ways that in traditional racing simply wouldn't allow. When the two are combined, you suddenly see them stand out and are often unfairly labeled as bending the rules, or worse. Andy Forrest, and his Westfield, is a good example of thinking outside the box and then being asked to move Class.

I don't have concerns for the future of the SLS but do believe it's going to gravitate to the lower power classes. Certainly Class A and Pro need something done to encourage numbers. Perhaps they could be combined and re-branded 'Demonstration Class' where rules are relaxed and cars that don't quite fit the norm can go and put on a show.

I've enjoyed the freedom Pro, but this will be my last event in that Class. The cost of running a car capable of a low 50's lap time is just too high. This year has caused more wear and tear on the car than all the previous years put together. I suspect it is the Chase series doing that, but just reinforces my views on that (as said in another post).
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Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:12 pm PostPost subject:
AK
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I believe the plan is to have a meeting at lunch time on Sunday.

I’ve made some rough notes on my thoughts
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Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:33 am PostPost subject:
Jackstrath
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HummuH wrote:
scottish scrutineer wrote:
s2t wrote:
In the interests of transparency why dont we publish the RA dyno graphs


Because some won't want to give their secrets away. That's not saying that they are cheating, but the graphs that I've seen show how folks are developing their cars within the rules. They have invested time and effort to do this.

Question Would you share your setup details with your competitors?


A power run dyno plot doesn't really give that much away in the scheme of "setup details" and due to the class structure everyone pretty much roughly knows where their competitors are at.

I guess this debate principally revolves around accusations of "cheating". Is publishing power, weight etc for all competitors going to solve that? Nope, there will always saltyness in the paddock at these type of events.

I still think the best measure of "cheating" is already public info, that's the lap times, sector times and speed traps. It's very easy to measure a competitors performance against previous outings as a % improvement given the data is in spreadsheet.

Only thing it doesn't account for is track conditions but even wet v damp v dry speed trap data should be relatively comparable I'd have thought, perhaps more so in lower classes. Sector times and lap times less so.


Nah i have to disagree, a power graph can and will show the power available and where, i suspect that white scooby that was asked to re run its power run would have a very strong power graph from very low down in the rev range, (ie near enough max HP at 3000rpm right the way to its redline) granted your smaller CC'd NA engines cant be mapped to be like that and theres nothing in the rules to say you cant be mapped like that, but to me a cars power delivery shown is like sharing your suspension settings.

Peak power might win a pub talk, but its not going to win you races.
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Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:07 pm PostPost subject:
Andy.F
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I have only just caught up with this thread. On a point raised earlier regarding using the Rear Demister switch to swap maps, that is standard issue from Ecutek for remapped Impreza's, there will be literally thousands of them driving about out there that have that function.

Monitoring boost levels for power changes also will not work, 5 degrees of ignition timing or an AFR change for example (potentially switchable on most ECU's) could easily alter the power by say 20-30bhp.

The only way I see to keep an eye on actual P/W is by trap speed.

Final point, for now Wink

Can I ask why, when a car doesn't seem to fit in its own Power/Weight class, it gets dumped into Pro class? Surely to comply with Pro class, a car needs to prove it has 450+whp/tonne. It should not be running out of class just because they want to run in a higher class, or have better choice of tyres etc. Pro class cars are pushing everything much harder so typically will be less reliable. A lower P/W car has an advantage here by just finishing every event in the points.
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Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:15 pm PostPost subject:
AK
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good point....

I think a line needs drawn on PRO (season entries etc).

One example - I know David is prob Class A, but dont think he's running in pro because its easy Laughing He wanted free'er tyre choice. His pace is enough to win A anyway, so no issues in my opinion Smile

A 200hp golf in PRO though ..... yes. That is daft.

1 offs not an issue, but season long - na!
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