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Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:10 pm PostPost subject:
scottish scrutineer
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Power to weight based classes are a nightmare. You need to have a designated rolling road, with one operator, ideally that is available at the circuit. As some in SLS have found, its not all about maximum power, torque, handling, braking and driver ability all are important factors.

There is a huge amount of work involved in establishing and monitoring a power to weight class structure. To be effective every car would have a sealed engine and ECU before the season starts. Whilst this is done in SLS, I can assure you it is an administrative and logistical hassle.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:16 pm PostPost subject:
YumYumTurbo
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scottish scrutineer wrote:
Power to weight based classes are a nightmare. You need to have a designated rolling road, with one operator, ideally that is available at the circuit. As some in SLS have found, its not all about maximum power, torque, handling, braking and driver ability all are important factors.

There is a huge amount of work involved in establishing and monitoring a power to weight class structure. To be effective every car would have a sealed engine and ECU before the season starts. Whilst this is done in SLS, I can assure you it is an administrative and logistical hassle.


Yup it will be a nightmare, it seems to be a nightmare trying to get more people into racing also.

If the above are the views that its a nightmare so lets just carry on doing what we are then i am sorry but the numbers for smrc will not likely increase....check mate.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:18 pm PostPost subject:
andybell
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that's quite a negative attitude - not every suggestion will be an instant lightbulb moment as if it was easy for most part would be already done. Its about getting opinions and everyone will have slightly different views on each suggestion and nobody is right/wrong its just based on own experience.

Now some would have already tried all of this perhaps but again if it was easy would already be done
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:26 pm PostPost subject:
YumYumTurbo
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andybell wrote:
that's quite a negative attitude - not every suggestion will be an instant lightbulb moment as if it was easy for most part would be already done. Its about getting opinions and everyone will have slightly different views on each suggestion and nobody is right/wrong its just based on own experience.

Now some would have already tried all of this perhaps but again if it was easy would already be done


Wouldn't say negative, more fact. The question has been WHY is there no interest or hard to get more people into SMRC, it has been pretty boring for a few years now.

Think this whole thread has discussed why and know. If nothing changes then the result/outcome will be the same.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:30 pm PostPost subject:
andybell
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so the key thing that has to change is someone has to own this as there isn't anyone that is paid to do it. discussion is great and yes whole point of thread.

But someone needs to turn the discussion into an attempt at reality. Its not for me hence why i paid for existing series as it fitted my needs
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:32 pm PostPost subject:
Erik
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YumYumTurbo wrote:
scottish scrutineer wrote:
Power to weight based classes are a nightmare. You need to have a designated rolling road, with one operator, ideally that is available at the circuit. As some in SLS have found, its not all about maximum power, torque, handling, braking and driver ability all are important factors.

There is a huge amount of work involved in establishing and monitoring a power to weight class structure. To be effective every car would have a sealed engine and ECU before the season starts. Whilst this is done in SLS, I can assure you it is an administrative and logistical hassle.


Yup it will be a nightmare, it seems to be a nightmare trying to get more people into racing also.

If the above are the views that its a nightmare so lets just carry on doing what we are then i am sorry but the numbers for smrc will not likely increase....check mate.


That would maybe be true if the only options on the table were your way or the way things are just now..... but that's simply not the case.

There is a third option I've described which has all the positives of keeping things close, cheap and not about biggest wallet wins whilst also keeping things simple and avoiding all the head aches which Renny has described in relation to power to weight and the points I've already highlighted showing where that format falls over.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:36 pm PostPost subject:
YumYumTurbo
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Erik wrote:
YumYumTurbo wrote:
scottish scrutineer wrote:
Power to weight based classes are a nightmare. You need to have a designated rolling road, with one operator, ideally that is available at the circuit. As some in SLS have found, its not all about maximum power, torque, handling, braking and driver ability all are important factors.

There is a huge amount of work involved in establishing and monitoring a power to weight class structure. To be effective every car would have a sealed engine and ECU before the season starts. Whilst this is done in SLS, I can assure you it is an administrative and logistical hassle.


Yup it will be a nightmare, it seems to be a nightmare trying to get more people into racing also.

If the above are the views that its a nightmare so lets just carry on doing what we are then i am sorry but the numbers for smrc will not likely increase....check mate.


That would maybe be true if the only options on the table were your way or the way things are just now..... but that's simply not the case.

There is a third option I've described which has all the positives of keeping things close, cheap and not about biggest wallet wins whilst also keeping things simple and avoiding all the head aches which Renny has described in relation to power to weight and the points I've already highlighted showing where that format falls over.


Oh of course there are other options, always are, no one knows what will work unless tested, currently the format is staying the same so i expect no change.

You option may also work, who knows, we wont find out unless regs are re-visited because as it stands its open in each class, i've seen the regs.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:51 pm PostPost subject:
emicen
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scottish scrutineer wrote:
Power to weight based classes are a nightmare. You need to have a designated rolling road, with one operator, ideally that is available at the circuit. As some in SLS have found, its not all about maximum power, torque, handling, braking and driver ability all are important factors.

There is a huge amount of work involved in establishing and monitoring a power to weight class structure. To be effective every car would have a sealed engine and ECU before the season starts. Whilst this is done in SLS, I can assure you it is an administrative and logistical hassle.


Now that we've done 3-4 pages on Hot Hatch when the thread started for Sports & Saloons, I may as well join the derail Laughing

You missed out DSG & sequential boxes. A pretty majestic manual shift would take in the region of 0.25s (to quantify cause folk love real numbers a Ferrari 575M paddle shift box takes 0.22 so a manual stick stirrer would be doing well to get near that), VAG DSG boxes are 0.08s

6 upshifts per lap, that's a second saved. How much power would you have to add to shave a second off a lap...?

Only club I know of doing multiple race series with power to weight criteria is 750MC and they have a mobile dyno for scrutineering purposes.


YumYumTurbo wrote:

Yup it will be a nightmare, it seems to be a nightmare trying to get more people into racing also.

If the above are the views that its a nightmare so lets just carry on doing what we are then i am sorry but the numbers for smrc will not likely increase....check mate.


Whilst we're not going to agree, and I don't think it's fair saying the club are carrying on doing what they are doing because the new stuff they're introducing isn't to your taste, I can tell you something based on fact/research. Be it 750MC Hot Hatch with classes based on power to weight, or CCRC Hot Hatch based on engine capacity, a quick scan of some of their results showed me in both cases, very similar numbers of cars cross the line within a second of the car in front. Whether it's for 1st & 2nd or 16th & 17th, they've been in a race with a gap like that. That's the kind of racing I like to see and I'd like to think that's one thing we would agree on.

Racing isn't really racing when it's just one or two people fucking off in to the horizon Laughing




Sooooo... Sports & Saloons anyone? Laughing

- Better promotion, both of events and how to get in to racing
- Allowing spaceframe/specials/silhouettes back in
- New drivers' rep

Anymore for anymore?
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:58 pm PostPost subject:
YumYumTurbo
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emicen wrote:
scottish scrutineer wrote:
Power to weight based classes are a nightmare. You need to have a designated rolling road, with one operator, ideally that is available at the circuit. As some in SLS have found, its not all about maximum power, torque, handling, braking and driver ability all are important factors.

There is a huge amount of work involved in establishing and monitoring a power to weight class structure. To be effective every car would have a sealed engine and ECU before the season starts. Whilst this is done in SLS, I can assure you it is an administrative and logistical hassle.


Now that we've done 3-4 pages on Hot Hatch when the thread started for Sports & Saloons, I may as well join the derail Laughing

You missed out DSG & sequential boxes. A pretty majestic manual shift would take in the region of 0.25s (to quantify cause folk love real numbers a Ferrari 575M paddle shift box takes 0.22 so a manual stick stirrer would be doing well to get near that), VAG DSG boxes are 0.08s

6 upshifts per lap, that's a second saved. How much power would you have to add to shave a second off a lap...?

Only club I know of doing multiple race series with power to weight criteria is 750MC and they have a mobile dyno for scrutineering purposes.


YumYumTurbo wrote:

Yup it will be a nightmare, it seems to be a nightmare trying to get more people into racing also.

If the above are the views that its a nightmare so lets just carry on doing what we are then i am sorry but the numbers for smrc will not likely increase....check mate.


Whilst we're not going to agree, and I don't think it's fair saying the club are carrying on doing what they are doing because the new stuff they're introducing isn't to your taste, I can tell you something based on fact/research. Be it 750MC Hot Hatch with classes based on power to weight, or CCRC Hot Hatch based on engine capacity, a quick scan of some of their results showed me in both cases, very similar numbers of cars cross the line within a second of the car in front. Whether it's for 1st & 2nd or 16th & 17th, they've been in a race with a gap like that. That's the kind of racing I like to see and I'd like to think that's one thing we would agree on.

Racing isn't really racing when it's just one or two people fucking off in to the horizon Laughing

Sooooo... Sports & Saloons anyone? Laughing

- Better promotion, both of events and how to get in to racing
- Allowing spaceframe/specials/silhouettes back in
- New drivers' rep

Anymore for anymore?


Agreed.....when watching s&s that is what happens though, m3 vs evo at the front Laughing

Anyways, hope to see how things move forward.

Will keep an eye on what happens for next season if anything.

Good luck all involved.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:11 pm PostPost subject:
AK
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Some quick points from me..

SLS is power to weight, and it works. Close at the top of classes.
SMRC isnt power to weaight, and I'd think they would be reluctant to adopt that headache (See Renny's comments). Its also what sets the two series apart just now (that and the racing/sprint diff)

If there are ~5/10 Clios ready to go just now it would be a good race for them in the current Sports & Saloons setup. Class B3. You'd basically have that championship as your own.

Once cars are out there racing it then encourages growth and more smaller <2000cc cars on treaded tyres will come out of the wood work.

BUT - as said - if you had 5 cars of same make/similar pace that would be a great starting point, and a building block for moving forward.

I do like the Power to Weight setup as it helps to avoid folk just adding xxxbhp and roasting it up the straights against cars with far less power.

Re Minis - I dont think they are too bad for contact. Some is inevitable if racing so close together on track and pace. Example - this weekend I had a lot of what I'd class as clumsy contact, none of it was of much concern though, some rubbing/tyre marks.
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Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:57 am PostPost subject:
crayons
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It may be my work head talking here but as this discussion continues, I think it would be a good idea to summarize the key topics/ ideas that are coming out from it.

My idea would be to collate the main changes that would convince you to enter S&S. We then put these into a poll and people can vote. This information can then be provided, with a list of names and cars that are interested in entering within the next 2 seasons to the SMRC. Depending on the number of respondent this will be real information that the SMRC can consider.

Ill get the ball rolling, The main changes that would encourage me to enter S&S would be:

Power/ weight class structure.
Segregation of quickest cars from the slower cars with the aim to have most cars finish on the lead lap or -1 lap of a race.
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Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:43 am PostPost subject:
HummuH
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Power to weight is not needed, it's a nightmare to organise, it's a nightmare to police and the rules are very easily broken, which they will be.

From what I can see, and this is always the case from the years I've been involved, people convince themselves it's not worth bothering unless they think they they can win the class. If everyone adopted that attitude there would be no racing at all.

Here's a fact: there will always be someone in there who will be prepared to spend more money than you to have better class performance than you. Outwith a one make series, no amount of club motorsport regulations will prevent that.

I think S&S (and hopefully SLS too) provides a pretty decent platform for any car to race in. People need to stop being so precious.
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Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:59 am PostPost subject:
Fee
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7 pages and I'm still not sure what's being suggested Laughing

I think there's some very valid points though

SLS and SMRC are distinctive and separate events.

Knockhill have created SLS and purposely kept it different to SMRC so that it does not encroach on their events.
It would be silly then to expect/want SMRC to adopt the same rules.
If SLS do start the Power to Weight races as part of their calendar, then the two organisations would be running the same.


Also agree, that if you think you'll have no one to race against, then the thought of entering / being the first one out there is a bit rubbish / daunting...but someone has to go first and encourage others to get out

And yes, whilst it would be nice to win all the time, as Mark said, there will always be someone that can come along with a bigger budget and blow you out of the water. And that's not just power related - having a new set of tyres for every round makes a huge difference, having a team behind you that can fix any 'on the day issues' so that you have a car that is on track for every race, suspension, brakes, set up, everything

From doing it for a few years, in what I consider a lower powered car compared to my competitors, being at the track on my own half the time and rolling about under the car....makes the times I ended the day with a trophy or two even sweeter
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Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:09 am PostPost subject:
WRobson
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HummuH wrote:
Power to weight is not needed, it's a nightmare to organise, it's a nightmare to police and the rules are very easily broken, which they will be.

From what I can see, and this is always the case from the years I've been involved, people convince themselves it's not worth bothering unless they think they they can win the class. If everyone adopted that attitude there would be no racing at all.

Here's a fact: there will always be someone in there who will be prepared to spend more money than you to have better class performance than you. Outwith a one make series, no amount of club motorsport regulations will prevent that.

I think S&S (and hopefully SLS too) provides a pretty decent platform for any car to race in. People need to stop being so precious.


Really good point Mark, I started 3 seasons ago in a slow heavy focus, in a class against a focus with 100bhp more, you in your rapid coraddo, and 3 Jap 4wd motors, I was far from fastest in the class but it gave me targets and something to work towards! Yes I spent some money, and also spent a lot of time removing weight, working on geometry setups etc etc, but I got faster, and that's what it's all about, where is the fun in just going out and being the fastest guy by a country mile? Far more fun in bettering yourself, your car and having a good duel on track!
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Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:53 am PostPost subject:
arm10
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WRobson wrote:
HummuH wrote:
Power to weight is not needed, it's a nightmare to organise, it's a nightmare to police and the rules are very easily broken, which they will be.

From what I can see, and this is always the case from the years I've been involved, people convince themselves it's not worth bothering unless they think they they can win the class. If everyone adopted that attitude there would be no racing at all.

Here's a fact: there will always be someone in there who will be prepared to spend more money than you to have better class performance than you. Outwith a one make series, no amount of club motorsport regulations will prevent that.

I think S&S (and hopefully SLS too) provides a pretty decent platform for any car to race in. People need to stop being so precious.


Really good point Mark, I started 3 seasons ago in a slow heavy focus, in a class against a focus with 100bhp more, you in your rapid coraddo, and 3 Jap 4wd motors, I was far from fastest in the class but it gave me targets and something to work towards! Yes I spent some money, and also spent a lot of time removing weight, working on geometry setups etc etc, but I got faster, and that's what it's all about, where is the fun in just going out and being the fastest guy by a country mile? Far more fun in bettering yourself, your car and having a good duel on track!


That's me in SLS. I've had a ball over 2 years. Improved brakes a bit, handling a bit, driving a bit, knocked 7 secs off first outing lap time and still never consider winning anything. Great fun and great place to be.
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