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Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:18 am PostPost subject:
crayons
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Location: Aberdeen

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YumYumTurbo wrote:
crayons wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
HummuH wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
That wouldn't work. Try telling the ST drivers they are going from a two race weekend to having one race.


There's time in the programme to split classes and have two races. Quali could be based on SLS quali time. That would work well.


Someone with an interest in entering should take this idea to the smrc. Similarly, Yumen, have you discussed power to weight issues with the smrc, there's still plenty time for regs to be signed off by the MSA. A power cap rather than a power to weight limit could be a good halfway house and keep things cheaper and simpler.


Perhaps a joint communication from all those interested in entering the S&S under a power/ weight ratio class structure to the SMRC would be the way to go. Either an email or a letter.


I tried and failed Sad

Might be good for more people to show interest on this and to share their thoughts, that might grab smrc attention.


Depending on how the SLS race works out next year the is always the option of running a race with KMRC, even on a one off trial basis. When I looked into it for the Mazdas, I remember needing about 14 entries to cover the costs with the same entry fee as SMRC. By the sounds of it there would be enough interest.

You could base the entries as having the pace to finish on the lead lap, So within 5 secs per lap of the fastest car. This would probably cover anything up to B1 in S&S (high 57s lap). and class C or D in SLS.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:22 am PostPost subject:
emicen
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Joined: 20 Nov 2009
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Erik wrote:
As a semi regular hot-hatch goer - i've been shouting the case for a hot hatch championship for a long long time now.

Appreciate there is perhaps classes within S&S that hot hatches could fall in to - but a dedicated championship in line with some of the multitude of other similar championships down south would be great to see in my opinion.

Have said it for long enough, as impressive as the super fast stuff is at knockhill - the best racing is always in the 'lower' classes - and i think thats a point made pretty well by the number of drivers who have gone from the big power stuff to dabbling in the slower stuff where the better 'racing' is.

As for the right and wrong way to do it - there will always be flaws however you address it. Personally, i dont think that power to weight is the be all and end all - even in SLS we see a bit of overlap between classes where the top end of Class F are running at Class E pace. My personal gripe with the SLS structure is the similarity between times and cars which can bunnyhop between classes with an extra pound of boost added or taken away or whatever. I always think it would be better if there was a more obvious gap between the classes - but again, theres always going to be flaws and oddities.

My own personal vision for a hot hatch championship would probably be based around power caps. Probably split in to two classes, an up to 1600 class and an up to 2000 class with power caps of maybe 150 and 200bhp respectively. N/A only and fairly strict restrictions over mods..... I think there are a lot of things you can do to keep it from being a case of seeing who's got the biggest wallet.

The biggest problem you have with enticing the hot hatch community (in my opinion anyway) is that most of us just do not have the kinda budget required to go racing. Thats the reality of the situation for folk with cars at that sort of level.

Even in its cheapest form, motorsport just isnt a cheap thing to do.

Speaking personally, i'm confident that in a 1600 NA class with a 150bhp power cap i could be at least fairly competitive. However - i'm ruled out straight away on the basis that I simply cannot afford the cost even at that level. Getting the car up to spec, racewear, licences and entry fee's make it very prohibitive - and thats before you even consider any (inevitable) damage...... that's probably the single biggest hurdle in getting folk to take the leap from casual track day goers to actual racers in my opinion.


Yeah, “cost effective” in motorsport is always a distinctly relative term! However, there’s also work going on in the background to try and assist with certain elements of that where possible. That being said, the only thing I’ve found that’s a bigger adrenaline hit was bidding on my flat at auction and lets not even go near how many race seasons’ budget that little episode cost me Laughing

The times your Saxo turns in I would expect to be very competitive in 1600 or outright in the proposed Hot Hatch formula, again, right around what STs run. In a series like this, I would expect damage to be lower than in 1 make stuff.

Contrary to popular belief, and to be fair it's not totally unfounded, it is possible to race in 1 make and mostly avoid damage. I had to do recovery drives a couple of times last year coming through tens of places and managed without losing doors & bumpers in the process. I’d like to think that’s another thing the coaching programme could help with, the first corner fever etc that a lot of new drivers experience and the not so favourable outcomes.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:38 am PostPost subject:
Erik
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Joined: 16 Apr 2008
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Location: Edinburgh

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Oh absolutely Malc, I wouldn't ever question the element of the 'buzz' that you (I imagine) get from such a thing. I'd love it. Love love love it....... that much has never ever been in doubt, but its unfortunately just not money I can really justify.

You'll know yourself - you really need to be able to go in to these things budgeting for damage and repairs along the way. If you're in a position where you can scrimp and stretch to get a car on the grid, but cant afford to fix it if you dent a bonnet or need a new bumper - then that's never going to end well.

Given some of the things I've seen going on at hot hatch days which aren't racing - I'm not sure I'd be quick to predict low levels of damage tbh lol........
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:48 am PostPost subject:
neil a
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Joined: 22 Mar 2014
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From an outsiders view i would think keeping costs low is the only way to get new entrants , for that reason the lower spec clios would be probably the cheapest way in .

A clio with standard engine , cup shocks , cooksport springs,bolt in cage could be race ready car for under £3500, with replacement parts being cheap and easy to get if the worst should happen.

This would then bring in the problem of being off the pace in SMRC more than likely with probably 63's laps.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:23 am PostPost subject:
Performancetek
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
Yumen, I enter around a quarter of the drivers in the SMRC's biggest grid and have more lined up for next year in the R53 cup, trust me when I say I'm doing my bit for getting numbers up, and only passing on advice on how others could do the same.


Wasnt aware you entered that many cars, are those cars you talk about competitors that use your services or are they all PTEK official cars that you enter from PTEK.


At every round 5 or 6 Minis are entered by PT Racing as an entry licence holder. These cars are a mix of driver owned and PT owned (hire cars) and all prep, repairs, storage, logistics, spares package, hospitality, driver coaching and race day support is provided by PT Racing.

For what it's worth, I think the SMRC may be amenable to the suggestion of power caps for the 1600 and 2000 hot hatch classes. 175 and 230 would be sensible figures. I know it might be a struggle to get a clio to 230bhp, but I'll put money on a 210bhp clio being quicker than a 230bhp type r. I know it will be, having seen the lap times one of the SMRC's finest drivers achieved in a Civic Cup spec EP3.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:10 pm PostPost subject:
YumYumTurbo
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Joined: 28 Jun 2014
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Location: Glasgow

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Performancetek wrote:
YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
Yumen, I enter around a quarter of the drivers in the SMRC's biggest grid and have more lined up for next year in the R53 cup, trust me when I say I'm doing my bit for getting numbers up, and only passing on advice on how others could do the same.


Wasnt aware you entered that many cars, are those cars you talk about competitors that use your services or are they all PTEK official cars that you enter from PTEK.


At every round 5 or 6 Minis are entered by PT Racing as an entry licence holder. These cars are a mix of driver owned and PT owned (hire cars) and all prep, repairs, storage, logistics, spares package, hospitality, driver coaching and race day support is provided by PT Racing.

For what it's worth, I think the SMRC may be amenable to the suggestion of power caps for the 1600 and 2000 hot hatch classes. 175 and 230 would be sensible figures. I know it might be a struggle to get a clio to 230bhp, but I'll put money on a 210bhp clio being quicker than a 230bhp type r. I know it will be, having seen the lap times one of the SMRC's finest drivers achieved in a Civic Cup spec EP3.


Decent that is, well done.

Power cap could be an option but it still comes down to money. To build a clio to 230hp you would need to have a built engine included with cams/itbs (not cheap), with honda bolt on mods you can reach 230hp.

This goes back to my original point that i have been trying to put across, only way for it to work well is power to weight.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:22 pm PostPost subject:
Performancetek
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How much does a stripped out clio weigh in at, and how far power wise would £2000 get you?
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:27 pm PostPost subject:
YumYumTurbo
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Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Glasgow

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Performancetek wrote:
How much does a stripped out clio weigh in at, and how far power wise would £2000 get you?


My old one for example weighed 920kgs, £2k wouldnt get much, cams, fitting valvetrain and mapping. Power roughly 185-192hp rr dependant.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:40 pm PostPost subject:
Performancetek
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 43

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YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
How much does a stripped out clio weigh in at, and how far power wise would £2000 get you?


My old one for example weighed 920kgs, £2k wouldnt get much, cams, fitting valvetrain and mapping. Power roughly 185-192hp rr dependant.


A civic cup spec car weighs in roughly at 1100kg unless you go wild with removing all the underseal and fitting plexiglass. They produce 230bhp with the cup power package that costs around £2000 (cup spec ecu, tegiwa exhaust manifold, exhaust, sports cat and intake)

That makes the civics power to weight ratio 209.09 bhp per ton.

It's scary how close the clios P2W is using the figures you gave me - 208.7 Shocked

The clios a much better handling car too. I think you could be really competitive with a clio if that sort of power limit was put on the class. It would rule out the chequebook racers that want to spend ten grand in a forged K20 and itbs etc.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:49 pm PostPost subject:
YumYumTurbo
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Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Glasgow

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Performancetek wrote:
YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
How much does a stripped out clio weigh in at, and how far power wise would £2000 get you?


My old one for example weighed 920kgs, £2k wouldnt get much, cams, fitting valvetrain and mapping. Power roughly 185-192hp rr dependant.


A civic cup spec car weighs in roughly at 1100kg unless you go wild with removing all the underseal and fitting plexiglass. They produce 230bhp with the cup power package that costs around £2000 (cup spec ecu, tegiwa exhaust manifold, exhaust, sports cat and intake)

That makes the civics power to weight ratio 209.09 bhp per ton.

It's scary how close the clios P2W is using the figures you gave me - 208.7 Shocked

The clios a much better handling car too. I think you could be really competitive with a clio if that sort of power limit was put on the class. It would rule out the chequebook racers that want to spend ten grand in a forged K20 and itbs etc.


you are just referring to an ep3? there are loads of civics that can get under 1000kgs & ou are kidding yourself if you cant get an ep3 to 1000kgs, you of all people should know that it can be done. A lightly tuned k20 will make 230-240 in a car weighing 1000kgs so in essence 230-240hp per tonne.

I see what you're trying to do here, it aint working & you wont convince me, lol
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:49 pm PostPost subject:
Erik
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Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Edinburgh

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YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
Yumen, I enter around a quarter of the drivers in the SMRC's biggest grid and have more lined up for next year in the R53 cup, trust me when I say I'm doing my bit for getting numbers up, and only passing on advice on how others could do the same.


Wasnt aware you entered that many cars, are those cars you talk about competitors that use your services or are they all PTEK official cars that you enter from PTEK.


At every round 5 or 6 Minis are entered by PT Racing as an entry licence holder. These cars are a mix of driver owned and PT owned (hire cars) and all prep, repairs, storage, logistics, spares package, hospitality, driver coaching and race day support is provided by PT Racing.

For what it's worth, I think the SMRC may be amenable to the suggestion of power caps for the 1600 and 2000 hot hatch classes. 175 and 230 would be sensible figures. I know it might be a struggle to get a clio to 230bhp, but I'll put money on a 210bhp clio being quicker than a 230bhp type r. I know it will be, having seen the lap times one of the SMRC's finest drivers achieved in a Civic Cup spec EP3.


Decent that is, well done.

Power cap could be an option but it still comes down to money. To build a clio to 230hp you would need to have a built engine included with cams/itbs (not cheap), with honda bolt on mods you can reach 230hp.

This goes back to my original point that i have been trying to put across, only way for it to work well is power to weight.


Personally speaking that's why I'd be keeping the upper power level a bit lower than 230.

Maybe 210 or there abouts - and I'm pretty sure you could restrict the allowable mods to prevent extensive modification. I think I'd like to see cars as close to how they came out the factory power wise other than bolt on's for that very reason.

Power to weight has its flaws as well - its certainly not the be all and end all.

A quick look at the most recent SLS results shows me a Class D car coming 8th overall (ahead of 3 Class C cars, and two class B cars), and a Class C car beating a Class A car to name a few of the anomalies.

12th Place (59.341) through to 21st place (61.329) you've got 10 cars covered by 2 seconds covering 4 different classes.

A lap time circa 60-61 could realistically belong to a car in anything from B through to E at the moment.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:50 pm PostPost subject:
YumYumTurbo
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Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Glasgow

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Erik wrote:
YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
Yumen, I enter around a quarter of the drivers in the SMRC's biggest grid and have more lined up for next year in the R53 cup, trust me when I say I'm doing my bit for getting numbers up, and only passing on advice on how others could do the same.


Wasnt aware you entered that many cars, are those cars you talk about competitors that use your services or are they all PTEK official cars that you enter from PTEK.


At every round 5 or 6 Minis are entered by PT Racing as an entry licence holder. These cars are a mix of driver owned and PT owned (hire cars) and all prep, repairs, storage, logistics, spares package, hospitality, driver coaching and race day support is provided by PT Racing.

For what it's worth, I think the SMRC may be amenable to the suggestion of power caps for the 1600 and 2000 hot hatch classes. 175 and 230 would be sensible figures. I know it might be a struggle to get a clio to 230bhp, but I'll put money on a 210bhp clio being quicker than a 230bhp type r. I know it will be, having seen the lap times one of the SMRC's finest drivers achieved in a Civic Cup spec EP3.


Decent that is, well done.

Power cap could be an option but it still comes down to money. To build a clio to 230hp you would need to have a built engine included with cams/itbs (not cheap), with honda bolt on mods you can reach 230hp.

This goes back to my original point that i have been trying to put across, only way for it to work well is power to weight.


Personally speaking that's why I'd be keeping the upper power level a bit lower than 230.

Maybe 210 or there abouts - and I'm pretty sure you could restrict the allowable mods to prevent extensive modification. I think I'd like to see cars as close to how they came out the factory power wise other than bolt on's for that very reason.

Power to weight has its flaws as well - its certainly not the be all and end all.

A quick look at the most recent SLS results shows me a Class D car coming 8th overall (ahead of 3 Class C cars, and two class B cars), and a Class C car beating a Class A car to name a few of the anomalies.

12th Place (59.341) through to 21st place (61.329) you've got 10 cars covered by 2 seconds covering 4 different classes.

A lap time circa 60-61 could realistically belong to a car in anything from B through to E at the moment.


if we are restricting power then we'd be may as well running it POWER TO WEIGHT, lol
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:55 pm PostPost subject:
Erik
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Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Edinburgh

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YumYumTurbo wrote:
Erik wrote:
YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
Yumen, I enter around a quarter of the drivers in the SMRC's biggest grid and have more lined up for next year in the R53 cup, trust me when I say I'm doing my bit for getting numbers up, and only passing on advice on how others could do the same.


Wasnt aware you entered that many cars, are those cars you talk about competitors that use your services or are they all PTEK official cars that you enter from PTEK.


At every round 5 or 6 Minis are entered by PT Racing as an entry licence holder. These cars are a mix of driver owned and PT owned (hire cars) and all prep, repairs, storage, logistics, spares package, hospitality, driver coaching and race day support is provided by PT Racing.

For what it's worth, I think the SMRC may be amenable to the suggestion of power caps for the 1600 and 2000 hot hatch classes. 175 and 230 would be sensible figures. I know it might be a struggle to get a clio to 230bhp, but I'll put money on a 210bhp clio being quicker than a 230bhp type r. I know it will be, having seen the lap times one of the SMRC's finest drivers achieved in a Civic Cup spec EP3.


Decent that is, well done.

Power cap could be an option but it still comes down to money. To build a clio to 230hp you would need to have a built engine included with cams/itbs (not cheap), with honda bolt on mods you can reach 230hp.

This goes back to my original point that i have been trying to put across, only way for it to work well is power to weight.


Personally speaking that's why I'd be keeping the upper power level a bit lower than 230.

Maybe 210 or there abouts - and I'm pretty sure you could restrict the allowable mods to prevent extensive modification. I think I'd like to see cars as close to how they came out the factory power wise other than bolt on's for that very reason.

Power to weight has its flaws as well - its certainly not the be all and end all.

A quick look at the most recent SLS results shows me a Class D car coming 8th overall (ahead of 3 Class C cars, and two class B cars), and a Class C car beating a Class A car to name a few of the anomalies.

12th Place (59.341) through to 21st place (61.329) you've got 10 cars covered by 2 seconds covering 4 different classes.

A lap time circa 60-61 could realistically belong to a car in anything from B through to E at the moment.


if we are restricting power then we'd be may as well running it POWER TO WEIGHT, lol


Not really sure what that's achieving though? As per my last post you've already got cars across maybe 4 different PTW classes all lapping at what is a very comparable / similar pace......?

As I said, I'd rather see cars running as near to standard as possible barring basic bolt on's. That's the simplest possible way to keep it from being about the biggest wallet wins.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:58 pm PostPost subject:
Performancetek
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 43

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YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
How much does a stripped out clio weigh in at, and how far power wise would £2000 get you?


My old one for example weighed 920kgs, £2k wouldnt get much, cams, fitting valvetrain and mapping. Power roughly 185-192hp rr dependant.


A civic cup spec car weighs in roughly at 1100kg unless you go wild with removing all the underseal and fitting plexiglass. They produce 230bhp with the cup power package that costs around £2000 (cup spec ecu, tegiwa exhaust manifold, exhaust, sports cat and intake)

That makes the civics power to weight ratio 209.09 bhp per ton.

It's scary how close the clios P2W is using the figures you gave me - 208.7 Shocked

The clios a much better handling car too. I think you could be really competitive with a clio if that sort of power limit was put on the class. It would rule out the chequebook racers that want to spend ten grand in a forged K20 and itbs etc.


you are just referring to an ep3? there are loads of civics that can get under 1000kgs & ou are kidding yourself if you cant get an ep3 to 1000kgs, you of all people should know that it can be done. A lightly tuned k20 will make 230-240 in a car weighing 1000kgs so in essence 230-240hp per tonne.

I see what you're trying to do here, it aint working & you wont convince me, lol


I agree there are other civics you can make really light, like eg's but the regs don't allow for the fitment of a K20 in them. EP3's are heavy buggers, sure with spending extra money on a T45 cage, plastic windows etc you could get it closer to a ton, but it's a lot of money for not a lot of weight saving.

Tell you what would be great for the 1600 class - EK4's, and I know where there's a pile of race prepared ones lying idle that wouldn't cost a fortune.
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Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:01 pm PostPost subject:
YumYumTurbo
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Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Glasgow

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Performancetek wrote:
YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
YumYumTurbo wrote:
Performancetek wrote:
How much does a stripped out clio weigh in at, and how far power wise would £2000 get you?


My old one for example weighed 920kgs, £2k wouldnt get much, cams, fitting valvetrain and mapping. Power roughly 185-192hp rr dependant.


A civic cup spec car weighs in roughly at 1100kg unless you go wild with removing all the underseal and fitting plexiglass. They produce 230bhp with the cup power package that costs around £2000 (cup spec ecu, tegiwa exhaust manifold, exhaust, sports cat and intake)

That makes the civics power to weight ratio 209.09 bhp per ton.

It's scary how close the clios P2W is using the figures you gave me - 208.7 Shocked

The clios a much better handling car too. I think you could be really competitive with a clio if that sort of power limit was put on the class. It would rule out the chequebook racers that want to spend ten grand in a forged K20 and itbs etc.


you are just referring to an ep3? there are loads of civics that can get under 1000kgs & ou are kidding yourself if you cant get an ep3 to 1000kgs, you of all people should know that it can be done. A lightly tuned k20 will make 230-240 in a car weighing 1000kgs so in essence 230-240hp per tonne.

I see what you're trying to do here, it aint working & you wont convince me, lol


I agree there are other civics you can make really light, like eg's but the regs don't allow for the fitment of a K20 in them. EP3's are heavy buggers, sure with spending extra money on a T45 cage, plastic windows etc you could get it closer to a ton, but it's a lot of money for not a lot of weight saving.

Tell you what would be great for the 1600 class - EK4's, and I know where there's a pile of race prepared ones lying idle that wouldn't cost a fortune.


Racing though, money talks unless regs are fair and if i had the choice i would take an ep3 over the clio due to power and weight it will be faster than a clio without a doubt.

Ek4's would be brilliant for the 1600cc class. Same scenario though, everyone would just buy ek4's then there the saxo/106 etc wont come out to play.

#powertoweight


Laughing
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