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Finding time

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Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:05 am PostPost subject: Finding time
alistairolsen
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So on a couple of recent trackdays, I've started looking more seriously at laptimes, mainly out of curiosity. Nothing too accurate, dashcam footage and check when you pass the pitbox on each lap, so we're talking accuracy of half a second, not hundredths here.

Both Kev and I were managing 1:10 fairly consistantly with two in the car and at the end of the day I was doing 1:09s with just me.

Clio: 165bhp 1080kg inc driver, 280mm front brakes, 259mm rears, ABS kept, 7x15 wheels, 195/50 R15 Uniroyal Rainsports. 1:09

Looking at some race series for comparison(http://www.smart-timing.co.uk/Lap%20Records_files/Knockhill.pdf):

Minis: 120bhp? 1075kg inc driver, 276mm front brakes, 259mm rears, ABS kept, 7x15 wheels, 195/50 R15 A048. 1:02.8
http://www.scottishmotorracingclub.co.uk/scottish_mini_cooper_cup_2017_-_smrc_v2_provisional.pdf

Compacts: 145bhp? 1150kg inc driver, 286mm front brakes, 272mm rears, ABS removed 7x15 wheels, 195/50 R15 Nankang NS-2R. 1:02.2
http://www.scottishmotorracingclub.co.uk/scottish_bmw_championship_2017_-_smrc_v3_provisional.pdf

Fiesta XR2: 85bhp? 845kg inc driver, 239mm front brakes, 178mm Drum rears, 6x13 wheels, 185/60 R13 A048
http://www.scottishmotorracingclub.co.uk/scottish_fiesta_championship_2017_-_smrc_v2_provisional.pdf

Under SLS, assuming 140bhp at the wheels and 1080 kg, my car would fall into class F, or the very slow end of class E.
http://www.superlapscotland.co.uk/downloads/SLSStarterPack.pdf

Best laptimes for F which should also match the bottom of E is 1:00.6. There seem to be a number of clios in Class E which suggests a little more power and they are also doing 1:02s

So it seems that there are a number of ways to skin a 62s lap, but many stock spec classes arrive at this sort of area. Many have the same brake and tyre sizes and the same level of freedom with suspension geo which I suspect means my 7 second gap down to (in order):

Driving (the big one)
Dry weather and running my 048s instead of road tyres (rainsports)
Suspension stiffness and geometry
Brake pads

Unless anyone can think of anything else significant?

I know driving is the big one, but watching a couple of the minis and compacts out on track, the way they stop and turn in is amazing to watch!

I know no one wants to share 'the fast settings' in these classes, but does anyone have any useful info on what pads people generally use, and what sort of numbers we're talking for geo setup? The minis I see are limited to 3 degrees of camber and I'd image run hard against this? All the classes seem to use a class supplied coilover, but what sort of spring rates are people using (I'm aware I'll need to convert this to wheel rate and back again).

Cheers
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Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:20 am PostPost subject:
AK
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braking and general commitment to corners are a big one, but you need to have decent tyres to allow this too! I notice this with the Impreza.... we may have the same power as others but we find that we're nearly through the back of them if following into corners! Tried any tuition? Its a good may to see where time can be made up Smile Also, doing a round of SLS would prob see you lose a couple of seconds off the times in a morning. Competing pushes you on a lot.

I've no idea on Minis yet Laughing but hope i'd be able to fire in a 64 without too much pounding round to get the times down.
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Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:44 am PostPost subject:
foz01
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Tuition was a revelation for me, probably found 4 seconds at least!
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Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:53 am PostPost subject:
alistairolsen
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Definitely need to give tuition a try next time out if I can. Foz, it'll be different for everyone, but what were the big changes for you?

Perhaps the turn in is all about driving too and setting the car up, but the minis specifically seem other-worldly in the hairpin!

Tyres is an odd one, this time I never brought the drys as it was Feb, but the rainsports are always nice and predictable (Until they melt in the dry) where the 048s are faster on the dry line, but awful on the damp and make pulling over for quicker cars after the chicane a bit sketchy (one trip into the gravel so far), so I tend to hold off fitting them until its completely dry
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Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:26 pm PostPost subject:
HummuH
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As above, tuition. Covers everything really and can also give you pointers on set-up improvements. Will also give you data for you to focus on when out on track. Get the instructor to do a fast lap in your car to have data to compare against.

Also, my 2p's worth, A048's, even in medium are not the tyres to use in SLS on a car of that weight. Can't get enough heat into them in 1 lap. You can get enough heat into 888's or 888R's, or so I found anyway.
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Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:01 pm PostPost subject:
David Long
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It can be easy to get sucked in to the technical side of things and wonder why your 'car' does not match the pace of others. The first few years of tracking were like that for me.

The truth is usually much simpler. You need to break out of well established habits and explore the uncomfortable zone - not necessarily from going faster, but consciously relearning technique. You will do that much more efficiently with some tuition.
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Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:03 pm PostPost subject:
Erik
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Tuition is defo on my list of things to try and get in this year. Absolutely the best way to get feedback on the improvements you can make driving wise.

Tyres, brakes and a good suspension setup would be my advice.

If you're after brake pad recommendation, mines would be for Carbon Lorraine pads. Use them myself in the Saxo, and know of a few of the Clio guys who run them as well. Not cheap, but you get what you pay for IMO.

I'm always heaps slower in the wet / greasy weather, always have been, probably always will be lol! But comparing your time in those conditions against the 62's being set in the dry is never going to be a fair comparison, so wouldn't be too hung up on the numbers till you see what you're doing in the dry. You'll be a fair bit closer than you think.

Worth getting yourself a proper lap timer if its something you're going to pay attention to as well.

You should be able to get down to consistent 64's with relative ease fairly quickly Id imagine.
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Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:08 pm PostPost subject:
alistairolsen
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Yeah I meant to organise it last year, but the last couple of trackdays I've been chasing inconsistant brakes. On some OEM spec pagids for the last day which held up surprisingly well.

I used to have CL RC5+ but at 3-4mm they stopped working well and then crumbled to bits. Might fit a new set and see how they fare. The stopping when they were good was immense.

Is it Haggis on here that does tuition?
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Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:53 pm PostPost subject:
andybell
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tuition as everyone else said - you may even be driving track wrong but don't see it yourself in videos.
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Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:07 pm PostPost subject:
AK
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Haggis does do tuition, but not officially for kh.

If you have a KH instructor in mind give KH a call to discuss. Other wise ask who they would supply for you.
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